debates. (first up: creation)

[Kelila]

Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth...no one comes to the Father except through me." (caps added) There is no other way. Everything else is just what the Dragon would have you believe. I have heard God speak to me (not like in my head, but actually verbally). I know that He is real.

[Cheetah]

This debate is supposed to be about how we were created lol... Let's not start arguing about whose religion is the right one and who is going to hell alright?

[Kishi Kat]

No one religion is right.

[jessicalawes11]

Religion is almost like an opinion. And it is, really. No-one's opinion can be proved right or wrong, so you've just got to stick by what you believe in and hope everyone else can accept it.

I would never press Christianity upon someone else. Sure, I personally believe that God is real without a doubt, but that doesn't mean I have to get everyone else to agree with me. It's important we all make our own decisions, otherwise there'd be a lot more arguing in this world than there already is.

[Kelila]

Uh-HUH. Well, you can't really talk about creation without gettin' into religion, anyway.

Back to that. The Big Bang couldn't have happened because the matter that everything came from had to come from somewhere. To quote the First Law of Thermodynamics, "Matter is now neither being created nor destroyed, only changed from one form to another." Note the NOW. Evolution (with a capital E) couldn't have happened because things would still be changing. Technology, however, evolves because we have the ability to learn, not because we're smarter. We're actually not as smart as we started out.

[Kishi Kat]

Ur. Things ARE still changing. XD

Change doesn't have to be apparent for it to still happen.

[Cheetah]

kelila said:

Uh-HUH. Well, you can't really talk about creation without gettin' into religion, anyway.

Yes but this is a creation thread, not a thread about whose religion is wrong, so let's keep it on topic.

And yes, things are still evolving. They don't just get to a point and then stop, and nobody ever said they did (and if they did say that then they're morons). It's an ongoing process, but in the case of life, it's a process that can take thousands to millions of years for any noticeable changes to take effect.

[Kelila]

Give an example. Give five.

[Cheetah]

Well a dolphin for example, used to be a furry, land-dwelling creature millions and millions of years ago. Then they slowly started going into the water to find their food. Pretty soon they started spending MOST of their time in the water, and when they had offspring, the babies followed suit. They eventually had to develop features that let them live in the water easier since they started spending their lives there. This wasn't magically instant, but over the course of millions of years. Basically, subspecies were created, and more subspecies of those, etc. The furry creature did not just transform into a dolphin. I forget the original animal was called. Look it up, I'm at work right now.

The dog evolved from many species of wild canids (many of which ARE still around today alongside their domestic cousins), with our help selectively breeding (so that one is half and half), but good example of evolution on a smaller scale. This one has been recorded in history for thousands of years.

On an even SMALLER scale, how about a virus or a bacteria? We create medicines to kill them, and so they eventually mutate to be immune and become a different strain altogether, so we have to once again go back to the drawing board to find something else that kills them.

Ever notice that fleas, ticks, and mosquitos become immune to certain products after a while, forcing you to switch to something new? I used to work in a pet store in Sebring, FL, and observed this personally. This year, Frontline and Frontline Plus have stopped killing fleas in that particular area of Florida because people have been using it there for years nonstop, and the pests bred out mutations that were immune who,in turn, had offspring. Viola.

Humans. And before you think anything, no I'm not going to say we came from apes. We came from lesser humans, and those lesser humans came from even less-advanced ones etc. An apelike creature MIGHT be far in our background somewhere, but it's no longer around (It's extinct) and it didn't turn into us. That's just crazy. But look at how advanced we are in the realms of intelligence and looks, compared to, say, Ancient Greece? Rome? You do believe in DNA at least.

Some Examples:
science.howstuffworks.com/evolution3.htm
www.evolutionhappens.net/
evolution.berkeley.edu/
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

Hopefully you'll at least look. I had some other guy FREAK OUT when I told him to go research it since he had many crazy ideas about it that weren't true. He REFUSED to even read stuff that was from reputable sources. Thus, blinding himself by choice. He could have read about it AT LEAST, and come back with some points to me about WHY he still disagreed. >9.9<

Here's a quote from that last site, which I like, and a good examples of what many highly religious people seem to think WE think Evolution is:

What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

Anyway, who's to say God doesn't have a hand in evolution himself? I don't think the bible's 7 Days was meant to be taken as a literal 7 days lol... but whatever lol...

[Kick-flare the insane newbie]

evolution is caused by the need to survive.

as a wise man said: THe strongest will find a way to survive and the weak will die.

This applies very much to the evolution factor.

I think thast evolution and religion go hand in hand... but reilgious debates need their own section.

IF it gets snippy then keep your bible bashing, pentacle banging, koran throwing butts outta of the thread.

No offense anyone.

[Kelila]

You need proof of that dolphin instance. Are there fossils of this? And how do you KNOW that the dolphin came from the furry creature? As far as I know, there aren't any "in-between" fossils.

On the bacteria and dogs: they remain bacteria and canines. They didn't change into different species or anything. They are still basically the same creature. Evolution can only change genes that already exist in an organism. This would be micro-evolution. The mosquitos and flies remain mosquitos and flies.

The people of Ancient Greece were extremely deep thinkers and theologians. aka, intelligent! The Romans had an intricate society and complex governing system. The Aztecs had indoor plumbing and the most advanced technology in the world in their time, until they were destroyed, that is. As far as looks, have you ever heard of people having a "Roman" nose? Hmm? Do you even know what they looked like, anyway?

The fossil record cannot justify the time periods of the world. The fossils have been dated by the soil types. The soil types, apparently, have been dated by the fossils contained within them! This justifies nothing. This, my friends, is circular reasoning.
P.S. What about the instance in which a trilobite fossil was found in a sandal print? a-MAZ-ing.

[knickknack]

I'm a Chirstian(Lutheran). I do believe that Ged made us and the earth all in seven days >3 I don't belive in all that evolution stuff ._.;

[Kishi Kat]

Blargh.

You will believe whatever you WANT to believe. We're not here to change you opinion, merely to state our own.

With that said...

I think we've pretty much neared the end of this one, it's getting further and further from the topic.

(For the record, I hate the Ancient Romans. Vomitoriums, cruel entertainment and a penchant for trying to take over the world just keeps me from finding anything to like about them.)

[Kick-flare the insane newbie]

I agree.. its time to close this... its getting out of hand

[Cheetah]

This would be micro-evolution

Which is a small step toward macro.

Let me quote something one more time for the "it still stayed basically the same" comment:

What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

They are still basically the same animals because yes, it IS only micro-evolution. We will only see a fraction of it in our lifetimes, if that. They are not done evolving and never will be.

And dogs are NOT the same as wolves/coyotes/dingos/etc. That's like saying that Baboons are the same as Gorillas, Chimpanzees, and Orangutans. They're completely different species. But we KNOW that dogs came from those wild canids because of history.

The fossil record cannot justify the time periods of the world. The fossils have been dated by the soil types. The soil types, apparently, have been dated by the fossils contained within them! This justifies nothing. This, my friends, is circular reasoning.

If you are referring to carbon dating, if I'm not mistaken they've found more accurate ways of dating things now.

You need proof of that dolphin instance. Are there fossils of this? And how do you KNOW that the dolphin came from the furry creature?

You need proof that the world was created in 7 short days. And a book is not proof. It's a book that human men wrote thousands of years ago. >u.u<

Honestly, none of us will ever witness evolution. It's the current theory. Which means, if you ever DID prove to everyone that the world was created by the hand of a giant invisible man in 7 days, science would throw out the theory of evolution and accept the invisible hand theory as the new and updated theory.